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Can Hold'em Ever be Resurrected?


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#1 CoolHand

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:47 AM

As I open up my full tilt poker lobby, I take a look at the one 25/50 nl game going on. I look at the average pot of 221 dollars and snivel, thinking back to 2/4 PLO games I've played with the same average pot on an almost regular basis. I quickly switch my browser to the PLO games, and while I don't plan to rail any of these "small" 25/50 games, the average pots of 1500 plus make me glad I call myself a PLO player.

Sure, tournaments will always be going for Hold'em. They are a lot of fun and you can amass giant stacks and win huge prizes. But will cash Hold'em ever become a legitimate, action packed game like it once was years ago? Sure, we get to watch a few fun battles with Kanu, Isildur, patpatman, and wilhasa, but other than that its just bum-hunters and nits. I remember playing on stars when you could add a buy-in when you were all in. I remember tables full of players at the 10 20 and 25 50 limits, not knowing who anyone was, not using tracking software, and just playing for the action.


What can be done to change this? Anonymous names? 3x requirements? A 6th card on the board? Or is it too late for Hold'em, and anyone not on the PLO ship has missed the boat completely?

#2 dtp92

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:51 AM

3 tables of 200/400 deep running on stars atm and earlier on there was some 300/600 ante being played so there is still some high stakes action

#3 jnbhj11

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:08 PM

did he talked about 200/400 or 300/600?
i guess no

idiotic reply rly :) yeah NL dieng and 0Human0 and some other nit regs on stars killed the action becouse one new player comes he will be destroyed no matter how good he is, becouse whole table will play on him- so its imo tuff to enter the games 25/50 and 50/100

#4 Temp1011375186943

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:19 PM

Maybe if the American market is reopened it will pick up again but I honestly believe it will never be like that again. Too many regs playing the game. Hell even PLO is heading that way. I opened 3 new deep ante tables yesterday and all five seats filled up with, yup you guessed it, short stackers - well short stack for those tables with player buying in for 100bb. Stats for these players were ridiculously tight with only one player having VPIP% above 30 -WTF?

#5 CoolHand

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:18 PM

Temp101 (2012-11-20) Maybe if the American market is reopened it will pick up again but I honestly believe it will never be like that again. Too many regs playing the game. Hell even PLO is heading that way. I opened 3 new deep ante tables yesterday and all five seats filled up with, yup you guessed it, short stackers - well short stack for those tables with player buying in for 100bb. Stats for these players were ridiculously tight with only one player having VPIP% above 30 -WTF?



Angle shooting is big now. It is like taking steroids in professional sports. Everyone is looking for an edge and no one just competes anymore. I guess that is why only tournaments still thrive. Everyone has to play until they are knocked out. They can't just jump in and out as they please. I would equate tournaments to playoffs in professional sports, and cash games to the local con on the corner playing 3 card monte and running anytime a legitimate threat comes.


Even if the U.S. market comes back, the game has been primarily solved. I think its time for 2-7 triple draw to take the stage!

#6 nodrugs4u

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:34 PM

CoolHand (2012-11-20)
Even if the U.S. market comes back, the game has been primarily solved. I think its time for 2-7 triple draw to take the stage!



I can see 2-7 rising in popularity but i dont think its ever gonna get what PLO is today, simply because its not a flop, turn, river game. Im a complete fish in the game but from what I see its a game you gotta do some studying about and it becomes less psychological and more mathematical. I think PLO is gonna be #1 for years to come.

#7 babbage

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:53 PM

nlhe + 2 cards is the future... but completely agree with what your saying. Regs make it near impossible for new nlhe players to emerge. what can be done???

#8 fatboi78

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:14 PM

its just a solved game at 100bb its hard to have an edge whereas plo isnt solved so even at the highest limits good players are doing enough things differently that someone has an edge. The only ways people have a big edge in nl is if there are enough fish in the game, which there arent. This is however why tournaments are still popular as they are the game that fish love, they see a relatively small buyin compared to the first place and think they can do it. Its also what they have mostly seen on tv and this is why so many people still play those as all the tv time means fish still play and the games are relatively soft.

These days i play mid to low high stakes holdem and with how good i am now, i could of crushed those 25/50 + games back in the day, as many people could, the game moved forward people got better as there was so much GOOD information available on the internet. And without people around willing to put up a lot of money who are bad it just will never be the same again

The only exception to this is hu where due to the exploitative nature of it people can still get decent edges even when two good players play, however unless two good players feel like battling this happens less often and comprises most of the action seen at higher stakes

#9 CoolHand

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:28 PM

Ya, I guess heads up is the one part of nl that isn't solved, but again you have the regs with their huge lists of "no play" names, waiting for someone to show up who happens to have awful stats....

It sucks because instead of people working to get better by playing better opponents, they just give up and look for easy game. Nowadays, everyone wants everything to come easy, and no one is willing to put the time, effort, and risk in to achieve true greatness.

#10 brydon10

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:43 PM

And then you have people like XWINK who have no fear and destroy regs for a short period of time

#11 RunAwesome

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:47 PM

There has been an absolute ton of discussion on 2+2 about methods to help the state of bum hunting. With all kinds of interesting suggestions like a King of the hill style lobby, all kinds of things that would help increase the action by having more people playing each other.
There was even a kind of test on Stars (basically limited to just high-stakes players on Stars' test site) for the high stakes No limit games to be changed into a kind of Rush/Zoom format, where essentially they have considered making it the only option at NL $25-50+ 6-max. Obviously that would be better for action and would help the bum-hunting situation a lot, but it would mean that we wouldn't be able to watch it.


As for different games/variants, I played dealer's choice in my local casino couple of times - with the rotation/choice being between: NL, PLO and Irish. "Irish" (might be called other names elsewhere) was pretty popular on the table. It's kind of fun, it's essentially like No limit, except that you start with 3 cards and discard one of them on the flop/after the round of betting on the flop. The turn and river are played just like No limit. I think something like that would eat pretty fun to play online and that a lot of people would try it.
Also "crazier" mixed games like Pineapple and Baduecey/Badacey have apparently been becoming more popular in casinos, so I think it's probably just a matter of time before one of those types of games gets implemented online.

#12 FeltedAgain

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

CoolHand (2012-11-20) As I open up my full tilt poker lobby, I take a look at the one 25/50 nl game going on. I look at the average pot of 221 dollars and snivel, thinking back to 2/4 PLO games I've played with the same average pot on an almost regular basis. I quickly switch my browser to the PLO games, and while I don't plan to rail any of these "small" 25/50 games, the average pots of 1500 plus make me glad I call myself a PLO player.

Sure, tournaments will always be going for Hold'em. They are a lot of fun and you can amass giant stacks and win huge prizes. But will cash Hold'em ever become a legitimate, action packed game like it once was years ago? Sure, we get to watch a few fun battles with Kanu, Isildur, patpatman, and wilhasa, but other than that its just bum-hunters and nits. I remember playing on stars when you could add a buy-in when you were all in. I remember tables full of players at the 10 20 and 25 50 limits, not knowing who anyone was, not using tracking software, and just playing for the action.


What can be done to change this? Anonymous names? 3x requirements? A 6th card on the board? Or is it too late for Hold'em, and anyone not on the PLO ship has missed the boat completely?


FD

#13 shakadude

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:11 AM

Poker is dead!

Been hearing this since 1998. It's just evolving, there are fewer bad players now because of numerous factors. There will always be people who win if you are in the top 20% of poker players.

#14 Michiel

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:49 PM

ban all the HUDs, all the tracking software and stuff, and we will all play hold em once again

#15 MangeA

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:57 PM

Imo the thing that destroy the games the most are all the help of programs like HUD and stuff that gives the all the players an inside of what everyone is doing , make some tables where u cant use stuff like that and let the skills be more of a factor again..
And prob anonymous nicks, and it should not be an option to not post blind at a table, if u sit u play.

#16 shakadude

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:20 AM

Good point, its definitely getting to the point where the poker software is overtaking the skill of the poker player.

#17 lofigr

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

If PokerStars e.g. just remove players names from the screen, and players don't put unique picture, then none would know whome they are playing against and action would start to show....

It woud be players choise to put/remove unique pic representing himself (like M.O.P, Ben86, Sauce123, MadMags, Joiso as now they cross my mind having unique pic, but many others also do have it, btw all sponsored players have it). Also, more players could have same pics, and one could pretend to be some other famous player having the same pic....

No nickname, no picture, great action... but....

....but....

no more sites like this one, and who knows what else would be jeopardised....

#18 brydon10

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:50 PM

I agree with you WCS064. PLO is just a huge gamble game. If you want to deal with massive swings where it's possible for fish to dominate you with luck, by all means play PLO. Look at cadillac1964. He was a huge fish, and won a million in a day. Sure he lost it because he kept playing, but what if he decided not to. The pro would have lost a million due to the huge variance.

#19 brydon10

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:54 PM

Yes, that's very true. But no one can deny that the variance in PLO is very wild. I guess it what makes it so much fun to watch and play (until you bust due to bad beats)

#20 denis x007x

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

Michiel (2012-11-22) ban all the HUDs, all the tracking software and stuff, and we will all play hold em once again



dont really care about HUDs since most players that use HUDs are ABC players whom i destroy


what i do want to see is take off the hidden feature (like FTP) on poker sites because it cuts into my hourly




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