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Discussing plays in PLO


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#1 WINNINGSTEK

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:17 AM

I'm not sure if there's a thread like this in the forum but if there isn't I think there should be one.

This hand is kinda crazy considering the winning hand. I'm not gonna try and justify my shove but I don't understand how he can call.


http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/1568830_30E168E203


As for my play, I think I'm better off making a small c-bet or giving up. Thoughts?


Please share your own hands that you want to discuss.

#2 subfocused

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:20 AM

Preflop:When it folds to you, I like the initial limp. If you pot it, you are just going to get everyone to call and define your hand to the top of your range. Once you flat in the sb and the bb raises, this is where I think you made a mistake...not a big one...but to me your thought process was okay I hope to get HU or 3-handed...you made it 6. That sizing is too big. The reason is the player last to act started the hand with 40BB and the player behind you has a big stack. If you notice he has a stack of $10 to start the hand, make it $4.90...when it gets to the big blind he has a decision to make because the player in late position is more than likely not going to just flat with 48% of his stack and when he shoves its going to reopen the betting to someone who backraises. In other words, you make it 4.90, BB flats, late position shoves for $10, and you can repot...as a back raiser, he has to fold unless he has aces, kings or wants to just gamble with a rundown. Once you flat his 6, I think its a really bad shove, because even if you get him to fold, if the late position short stack has an ace you still lose...so once you flat the 6, I think you have to shut down out of position.

#3 CoolHand

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:22 AM

WINNINGSTEK (2012-12-25) I'm not sure if there's a thread like this in the forum but if there isn't I think there should be one.

This hand is kinda crazy considering the winning hand. I'm not gonna try and justify my shove but I don't understand how he can call.


http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/1568830_30E168E203


As for my play, I think I'm better off making a small c-bet or giving up. Thoughts?


Please share your own hands that you want to discuss.



Pretty high variance play. Position is really important. IMO at these stakes if I play preflop like you did then I probably just check fold flop.


Yes his call is very bad on the flop, but will probably lose it all eventually. Sometimes people just go for it when they've already put in a third of the monies, hence your play is going to increase variance in the long run.

#4 WINNINGSTEK

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:45 AM

CoolHand (2012-12-25) 

WINNINGSTEK (2012-12-25) I'm not sure if there's a thread like this in the forum but if there isn't I think there should be one.

This hand is kinda crazy considering the winning hand. I'm not gonna try and justify my shove but I don't understand how he can call.


http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/1568830_30E168E203


As for my play, I think I'm better off making a small c-bet or giving up. Thoughts?


Please share your own hands that you want to discuss.



Pretty high variance play. Position is really important. IMO at these stakes if I play preflop like you did then I probably just check fold flop.


Yes his call is very bad on the flop, but will probably lose it all eventually. Sometimes people just go for it when they've already put in a third of the monies, hence your play is going to increase variance in the long run.



Are you better off measuring out three-bets, especially out of position? It's a lot easier to play I think, and could be a way to induce some kings to push... What do you like doing?

#5 WINNINGSTEK

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:03 AM

I must've made a mistake in this hand...

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hands/Boom/1582093_6CED3D526F


Not quite sure what I was thinking. Only aces with flush draw could call that I was in front of, and cap lead outs usually means strong made hands. Should I just have mucked the hand when I was three-bet? Or not play the hand at all?

#6 WINNINGSTEK

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:48 AM

I was really at a loss in this hand as to what to do on the flop.

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/1584328_A85426B8CF


I didn't want to jam because threeway it is so likely that one of them has two pair and I'd be far behind. How do you play this hand?

#7 wintime1111

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:58 PM

to winninstek, your hand with the aces on flush board, i think u made big mistake not callin river, u also bet to little on flop so i think hes callin with wide range, and he only bet bout third pot so only have to win 25% of time. just because theres flush and board is paired dont mean he has it, the jack on river wasnt bad card for you either. the other hand seemed fine, especially if he has aces.

#8 098123

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

i always peel one off because if you don't bet the next street then i do. but it's all situational, if you bluff a lot, then ppl will call. if ppl are running hot they call. but most of all, you're playing for $20 so they'll call. incredibly dumb move with kings since it's not anywhere near enough to thin out the previous callers. that's what you have to think about when you have something less than Aces and you want to pot it. if you wanted to shove the flop, a $5 raise on a table with $20 and $30 stacks isn't enough. that limp to pot move is so dumb. one of the worst moves in plo. how often do ppl actually fold once they call a raise? not nearly enough to make that play anything worthwhile. if you have just potted it immediately, you would have been able to bluff 2 streets and give up on the river and still have money left over. limp to pot, or min raise to pot is just so dumb.

#9 098123

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:53 PM

WINNINGSTEK (2012-12-27) I must've made a mistake in this hand...

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hands/Boom/1582093_6CED3D526F


Not quite sure what I was thinking. Only aces with flush draw could call that I was in front of, and cap lead outs usually means strong made hands. Should I just have mucked the hand when I was three-bet? Or not play the hand at all?



you're not playing at your level logically. the guy was either bluffing or had a 7 and was trying to hit something on the turn. any flush hand would have called you there. you're not playing for 100k. it's plo. not hold em.

#10 098123

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

WINNINGSTEK (2012-12-27) I was really at a loss in this hand as to what to do on the flop.

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/1584328_A85426B8CF


I didn't want to jam because threeway it is so likely that one of them has two pair and I'd be far behind. How do you play this hand?



another dumb play. you're just going to have to learn to not be a weak player. you should have potted it. you showed incredible weakness and i'm sure you do this often. standard play. call and bet into you on the river and a weak player will fold like a cheap suit. if you're not going to play aces strong on the flop, why are you raising them? you think ppl are going to call your all in flop bet on a pre flop pot with an ace on deck? dumb.

you have to realize that you're going to get called and all you can do is put it in when you have the best hand.

#11 WINNINGSTEK

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

098123 (2012-12-27) 

WINNINGSTEK (2012-12-27) I was really at a loss in this hand as to what to do on the flop.

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/1584328_A85426B8CF


I didn't want to jam because threeway it is so likely that one of them has two pair and I'd be far behind. How do you play this hand?



another dumb play. you're just going to have to learn to not be a weak player. you should have potted it. you showed incredible weakness and i'm sure you do this often. standard play. call and bet into you on the river and a weak player will fold like a cheap suit. if you're not going to play aces strong on the flop, why are you raising them? you think ppl are going to call your all in flop bet on a pre flop pot with an ace on deck? dumb.

you have to realize that you're going to get called and all you can do is put it in when you have the best hand.



The latter goes without saying but I'm not getting value from any hand that I'm in good shape against, barring gutshot + fd. So essentially I would be risking 17 to win 11, almost only getting called by hands that have me in a lot of trouble. On less coordinated I'm jamming as I'm not as weak as the hand might make me out to look.

#12 curry_dan

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:14 PM

Why is there no all in button?

#13 CoolHand

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:08 PM

Winningstek,

All I really see you doing is focusing on what you have. You are playing hands straight forward, seeing what you hit, and playing accordingly. You are not really thinking about the long term, whether your opponents are balanced(which they never will be), and using optimal game theory. For instance, when you had AA with Ah, you need to bet the turn small. Why? Keep the pressure on. If you turned the nuts you would try and get them in, so you need to bet the same way when you have the blocker. Yes, you might lose more money on this play, but you are setting up bluffs and 3 barrels with the nuts in the future.


Some players I can tell will NEVER 3 barrel bluff, so when they do 3 barrel I know they have it. I can fold big hands against players like this and never lose sleep about it. What hands we get is important, but there is nothing like getting inside another players head and exploiting them to the fullest!

#14 JynxTheLynx

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:42 PM


CoolHand (2012-12-27) Winningstek,

All I really see you doing is focusing on what you have. You are playing hands straight forward, seeing what you hit, and playing accordingly. You are not really thinking about the long term, whether your opponents are balanced(which they never will be), and using optimal game theory. For instance, when you had AA with Ah, you need to bet the turn small. Why? Keep the pressure on. If you turned the nuts you would try and get them in, so you need to bet the same way when you have the blocker. Yes, you might lose more money on this play, but you are setting up bluffs and 3 barrels with the nuts in the future.


Some players I can tell will NEVER 3 barrel bluff, so when they do 3 barrel I know they have it. I can fold big hands against players like this and never lose sleep about it. What hands we get is important, but there is nothing like getting inside another players head and exploiting them to the fullest!



Hows the progress going on bovada coolhand?

#15 WINNINGSTEK

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:44 AM

CoolHand (2012-12-27) Winningstek,

All I really see you doing is focusing on what you have. You are playing hands straight forward, seeing what you hit, and playing accordingly. You are not really thinking about the long term, whether your opponents are balanced(which they never will be), and using optimal game theory. For instance, when you had AA with Ah, you need to bet the turn small. Why? Keep the pressure on. If you turned the nuts you would try and get them in, so you need to bet the same way when you have the blocker. Yes, you might lose more money on this play, but you are setting up bluffs and 3 barrels with the nuts in the future.


Some players I can tell will NEVER 3 barrel bluff, so when they do 3 barrel I know they have it. I can fold big hands against players like this and never lose sleep about it. What hands we get is important, but there is nothing like getting inside another players head and exploiting them to the fullest!



I can upload some of my bluffs too. I do double-barrel, rarely tripple though, with nothing when I think a player is prone to giving up on pots.


Thanks for the advice though, that's why I'm uploading these hands

#16 WINNINGSTEK

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:10 AM

I have been passive in some of the hands I've posted here. In this one I'm the aggressor, and I'm forced to go virtually all in with 35% equity. Is it still a good play?

http://www.boomplaye...1150_5A285E03AD

#17 Jagglebooney

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:17 AM

To be fair you are getting the price to call ott. 2:1 basically. eurgh.

#18 CoolHand

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:59 AM

Poker been going very well, hows things going for you Jynx?

WinningStek, here is my overall point. When you bet, you need to ask yourself "would I bet this as a bluff?" when you have it, and "would I bet the nuts like this?" when you don't have it. If I was playing you, I would know that you are very unbalanced. You only bet strong hands, you check call draws, and overall you play fairly straight forward. Because you are playing so unbalanced, it is easy for me to make decisions about your play. When I find myself playing someone that is making the same play with bluffs as they are with the nuts, I find myself in much tougher decisions!

#19 DINEnGRIND

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:42 PM

winningstek i dont think youre grasping what coolhand is explaining to you, he's giving you excellent advice take it on board.

#20 098123

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

WINNINGSTEK (2012-12-28) I have been passive in some of the hands I've posted here. In this one I'm the aggressor, and I'm forced to go virtually all in with 35% equity. Is it still a good play?

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/1591150_5A285E03AD



you both had good hands. and again, you're not playing for 100k, these are standard all ins at this level. you were really only in bad shape against 1 hand, which he happened to have, but you got lucky.




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