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Chip Chop vs ICM deal!!!


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#1 alkent81

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:32 AM

I have make a deal yesterday in a tournament.With 3 left I was third.
And I have suggest a deal. the % of the chips in that moment was smth like 40 % 30 % 30 %.
Now the guys says to the operator chip chop numbers. After looking that numbers I was ok with that.
But I know that there is another way that is ICM.
Can Anyone tell me what is the difference between this 2 ways of deal?

#2 kkktookmybabyaway

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:56 AM

ICM : your chips = a chance of winning a prize. This is better if you are the short stack because you always have a chance of gaining more chips.
Chip chop : your chips = a monetary amount of the remaining prize pool. This could be best if you are the leader because you have those chips and could lose them.

#3 alkent81

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:54 PM

Ty kkk.
At least now I know that I have done a bad deal :)

#4 kkktookmybabyaway

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:40 PM

You may have taken more money with ICM, but if the chips % was something like 40/30/30 it wouldn't make a big difference.

btw, chip chop is a really bad-fake way for deal cause it takes into account only the stacks & the remaining prize pool..nothing more.
ICM is way more accurate and realistic cause is calculating few more factors that are very important.

#5 bodonk

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:13 PM

what are those factors and how do u calculate it?

#6 Donny

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:51 PM

bodonk (2013-05-08) what are those factors and how do u calculate it?



The main factors are stack to blind ratios and the payout structure. Best to use an ICM calculator (like this one http://www.icmpoker....alculator.aspx)

The ICM way attempts to do what chip chops fail to, account for the fact that one hand can dramatically change everything at the end stage of a tournament. That is basically the difference between the two.

A chip chop is a snapshot of the way the tourney stands, an ICM chop is the best logical prediction of how a tourney would actually play out.

#7 Donny

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:01 PM

alkent81 (2013-05-08) I have make a deal yesterday in a tournament.With 3 left I was third.
And I have suggest a deal. the % of the chips in that moment was smth like 40 % 30 % 30 %.
Now the guys says to the operator chip chop numbers. After looking that numbers I was ok with that.
But I know that there is another way that is ICM.
Can Anyone tell me what is the difference between this 2 ways of deal?



In your specific case it wouldn't matter anyway. The ICM numbers would be almost identical to the chip chop numbers, because of the close stack sizes. The difference comes in when you have big and small stacks.

Just remember that chip chops favor the big stacks and punish the small stacks.

If you are short and they want a chip chop, just don't do it. It's never worth it, you are always better off playing it out.

If you are the big stack, obviously a chip chop is your first choice. If they don't go for that, an ICM chop doesn't necessarily screw a big stack over, but if you feel comfortable closing out tourneys then you are probably better off playing it out and going for the win.

#8 TakenItEasy

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 08:05 AM

I mostly post in 2+2 (same name) but happened to come across this post when I noticed some slight misconceptions about ICM so I decided to join to add some comments.

 

ICM estimates the odds of players finishing in each spot based on stacks without taking skill into account and then calculates the weighted average of those finishes awarded according to the payout table. Basically a big EV calculation.

 

How chip chop differs from ICM is chip chop ignores the payout table while ICM does not. BTW chip chop can sometimes be used to describe ICM chop.

 

So in the case of $50/$30/$20 payout the largest difference in results is due to the fact that all 3 players have already made 3rd place money so the chips in play are actually to contest for 1st and 2nd.

 

Therefore the stacks represent the chances of improving by either $10 or $30. Another words only $40 is determined by stacks and the 60 already won is equal for each player. This is considered more fair because it's predicting results as if it's still a tournament and players to this point may have been acting based on the payout table

 

How chip chop awards the money is all players effectively donate back the $20 and stacks determine the split on the entire remaining prize pool. In essence payout like a cash game. One odd consequence to this is that if the payout schedule was flatter or the stacks were less evenly distributed the bottom money could get less than 3rd place.

 

In fact lets say there was a 4th place spot that was already paid $15 and players had agreed to a chip chop before hand when it gets down to 3 but the short stack only as 1 chip while the other 2 have 114 between them. Then 3rd place gets paid $1 while 4th got $15 which makes no sense.






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