Posted 2012-04-16 13:03
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I've been a PLO pro for several years, and find people have tons of questions about the game. While I will not claim to know all in this game (and in reality I don't think any poker player has solved this game), I have been consistently making 100k a year playing part time.
I wanted to offer this site a forum to ask questions, post hands, and bring up any cash game related topics about PLO to the table. I will do my best to describe my thought process for each situation, and hopefully you can take away something from my posts. I hope to learn from you too! PLO is a sick game with lots of variance, but the fact of the matter is that the game has not been solved (unlike holdem), and there is a lot of money out there if you play the game right.
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Posted 2012-04-16 13:24
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Interesting hand I played last night:
I have 5534 ds black. Table playing fairly aggro so decide to call raise to 30 in sb (in a tighter game fold this hand more often than not)
Three in the pot (UTG, button, and me)
Flop k j 3 two diamonds. I check and UTG and button check.
Turn is 4 diamonds. Pretty sure NFD bets UTG or button, so I make a stab for 95 ish. UTG folds, and button raises to 265. This gives me pause. He is basically saying he has the nut flush since he cannot raise with anything else. At lower limits I would snap fold here since there are many nits that like to wait for the nut flush to come before they bet, but at 5 10 this line makes absolutely no sense. I decide to call. River is 9. I check, guy bets pot for about 700 and I quickly call with bottom two. He shows a j1010 no flush and I win the pot.
it is rare that I play a hand like this, but thought I would post it to incite some questions/comments.
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Posted 2012-04-16 16:19
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This isn't a standard play by any means, the main reason I decided to post it. I rarely see a hand go down like this, probably once ever 3 months or so. I had a read on this guy that he plays aggressively, and moreover has no problem committing with two middle pair on most boards.
When he checks on the button on the k j 3 flop, it eliminates a lot of hands that he can have based on his play. You are right, a more competent player with a hand like a567 might check behind a NFD, but this was not the dynamic of his game whatsoever. Based on his play, I could eliminate a ton of hands in his range. (all two pair hands, big flushes, sets, wraps, and even a hand like akxx) When he raised the turn, I could then eliminate ALL flushes. All of a sudden, I am looking pretty good against his range. Yes, he could have been bluffing with the best hand (say he had j 9 xx and rivered a better two pair), but this was a rare situation that I believe dictated a hero call.
Why did I bet out? This game was playing very str8 forward and aggro, so if a flop was checked around it pretty much guaranteed weak holdings for the players at the table. Of course this is not always the case, but it was at this table at this time.
I think that often times, players get in the habit of trying to figure out "the best way to play". There is no such thing. Each situation is different, and the second you try to create a plan of how to play the game before you even sit down, you are dooming yourself. You have to treat each hand individually, and each player differently. How can you possibly have the same plan against a nit and a donk? I might never four bet a nit (unless I have AAxx), but if the donk is 3 betting me 50% of the time I would 4 bet a hand like qq35.
The last thing I would say is never do anything like this on lower limits. I've come to realize that most players at lower limits are playing one way: check call draws, and full pot nuts. Yes, if their draw is big enough or if they are pot committed they will be pushing a larger range of hands, but in general plo mid stakes play is super straight forward. That being said, there are always exceptions. Just pay attention to what people are doing, think through their style of play, and you will be shocked at the results you see.
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Posted 2012-04-16 16:43
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Last login: 2013-06-20
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whats you screen name coolhand I am a skeptic, and if you say that you dont want to post this shiznit i will assume you play .01-.02, you might even be metalgear for all i know! YOUR THE SHIZNIT METAL GEAR!
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Posted 2012-04-16 18:09
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I'm in the U.S. so I am confined to playing on Bovada. They no longer have screen names on the site, just player 1 through player 6.
I did a previous blog on this site, race to 100k. Started with 5k, got up to 35k, then bust. You can probably find it under the forums. Unfortunately, with no player names, horrible hand history software, the blog was pretty boring, so I decided to do this instead. If no one is interested no problem, just figured i'd share some pointers that have helped me along the way and discuss some interesting spots.
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Posted 2012-04-16 18:25
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ahh yes I remember that old posting, I guess that's enough for me to accept what you are saying true
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Posted 2012-04-16 19:47
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nice one coolhand playing tonight/tommorrow on iPoker, will bring up some spots soon!!
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Posted 2012-04-16 20:51
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Last login: 2013-06-13
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i have mixed feelings about plo. i love to play but feel the aggro fish turn it into a shove fest(lottery). most tables below plo100 people just ship so light. my question is @ what stakes can i play 'poker' and not have to ship every flop with marginal holdings? and if u where introducing someone to plo would u recomend. ring games or hu? i know these are newby questions i just realy miss "playing" poker and feel a lot of people take away the intricate plays that plo can offer.
great post btw. sorry for not asking question re; your hand. good call and your thought process in that spot was great.
2012-04-16 20:53 by
babbage
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Posted 2012-04-17 03:32
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justforthat (2012-04-16)
one question about threebetting: how frequently do you do it, compared in position vs oop, and do you always pot it?i do have an idea here, dont know wether it is mathematically correct or not, but one concept of AAxx in plo is if u get 1/3 of your stack in pre you can commit to every flop, right? so if u 3bet pot it and your opponent gets enough in with the 4bet u should fold if he has aces, right? so what about threebetting to say 2.5x the opening, we could call more 4bets with good rundowns, i assume. also we could 3bet lighter, which can never be a bad idea in position i think. the problem would be that some blinds might join and the pot is no longer HU...
opinions?
These are great questions, let me try to answer one at a time. First off, we have to pay attention to stack size when three betting or calling three bets. The general rule is that if you can get enough money in pre flop to allow you to get your AAxx all in with just one bet on the flop, then do it. However, lets say you have AAragrag in the sb at a 1/2 table and UTG raises to 7. If effective stacks are 200 total, that means you can only three bet to 21, then bet out 40-50 on the flop. Well, you have less than half your stack in at this point! This is a position I hate to be in. I'm calling in this spot all day.
Now if you are getting four bet, most of the time your opponent as Aces. Yes, he could have something like akqj ds or kkqq ds, but in most cases people are only willing to get it in with aces. If this is the case, and we are polarizing our opponents range to these hands, we have to figure out what hands play well against aces. This would be hands like 3456, 78910, and any other low card runs. Hands like aqj10 are crushed, and if there is a pair in your hand forget it and move on.
In general, I am always 3 betting pot. I want my play to be consistent and tell the same story every time, but if you wanted to 3 bet to 2.5 times each time, as long as it is consistent I wouldn't mind the play. Just realize that sometimes its ok to gamble it up. If I see two guys going at it strong and I'm sitting with a hand like 6789, I'm actually seriously considering going all in pre flop. Most likely they are going to flip over aaxx and akq10 or something of that nature, so my hand has great equity here. Yes, you will lose, but this is a spot I'd take all day, especially if they both have aces!
I think an interesting discussion for later would be to talk about the isildur/llari aggressive strategy which can clean up a ton, but also lose a ton if they hit a bad streak of cards, but that is for another discussion.
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Posted 2012-04-17 03:43
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babbage (2012-04-16)
i have mixed feelings about plo. i love to play but feel the aggro fish turn it into a shove fest(lottery). most tables below plo100 people just ship so light. my question is @ what stakes can i play 'poker' and not have to ship every flop with marginal holdings? and if u where introducing someone to plo would u recomend. ring games or hu? i know these are newby questions i just realy miss "playing" poker and feel a lot of people take away the intricate plays that plo can offer.
great post btw. sorry for not asking question re; your hand. good call and your thought process in that spot was great.
I feel you on this one. You go sit down, have a great hand range figured out, play soundly, and these goofballs are playing every hand and going all i with q 66 3. It does seem like the lottery, like we might as well be betting all our money on 20 black. However, I'm still sticking to my game in these situations. I'm trying to be the one to take the initiative, and I'm not calling more hands to "see what happens". Yes, you are going to get all in with AA and lose to something silly like q 8 7 4 from time to time, but you have to stick to your guns and play the game right. These jokers might win from time to time, but they are NEVER going to make it up to higher stakes playing every hand. Pros will eat them alive. (this is what I like to think about if I get a sick beat or someone playing horrible gets the best of me) Stay calm and carry on!
As for a limit where people don't gamble it up, well in PLO its tough because people love to gamble in PLO. All hands are basically a 60 40 situation, so you can never be too far behind. In my experience I would say 2/4 (400plo) is the limit where people start to gamble less and play more accurately, but hell, sometimes I see guys at 5/10 playing spewtastic.
If you are starting in at plo, do not start at hu, stick with the ring games. The thing is, I might lose at a 1/2 6man table here and there, but if i'm playing a 1/2 plo player hu, I'm winning that game 98 times out of 100. A good PLO player can exploit someone heads up way worse than a 6 man game, so don't put yourself in that situation until you get a good handle on your game and feel confident in your play.
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